Thread

Everytime I zap someone vie Lightning from my wallet, it takes 5-10 seconds for the zap to settle and for everyone to see it happen on nostr. Everytime, I think "this could've been an instant nutzap". "Tap, boom. Tap, boom. Zap zap zap. I would be zapping so much more." The reason a nutzap is instant is obvious. At this point, I hope that everyone knows that a Cashu nutzap is just an instant transfer of an IOU from one user to another. Let's step back and look at a pure Lightning zap on nostr for a second. We all know that the vast majority of Lightning zaps is effectively an exchange of one custodial IOU against another one as well. Most people use custodial wallets. So why is it still so slow? It's the Lightning settlement between the two custodians that often takes 5-10s to complete. Note, some users actually do run their own node, manage channels, run LNURL servers, etc. But they still get the same UX. Here is an idea. Let's say a user doesn't want to use Cashu. Pure Lighting maxi which I think is great. I've been a Lightning dev for years before I started working on Cashu. This user could still be nutzapped and even remain fully self-sovereign if they run their own node. What if the receiving user's Lightning wallet (custodial or non-custodial) was able to melt all nutzaps it receives by watching the nostr wallet ("nutsack") of its user? Either for every nutzap or whenever enough nuts are accumulated, the service could withdraw the nuts to the user's real Lightning wallet. Effectively, this would improve the zap UX by showing everyone an instant zaps. The receiving user's custodian (or themselves) would have to run something like a nostr-cashu-wallet-watcher on a server to receive while being offline, but they have to run a Lightning node and LNURL and all that anyway (they already have a server). Even without a server, normal nostr clients without true nutzap support could withdraw all nuts accumulated while they were offline back to their Lightning wallet everytime they come back online. The only real difference to a normal zap is that noe it's the receiver's job to settle via Lightning, not the zap sender's. Nevertheless, zaps on permissionless social media like in nostr will never be completely trustless. They can't solve the sybil problem for instance. If you want, you can zap yourself an infinite amount of normal Lightning zaps on nostr without moving s single Satoshi. We faked zaps in the early days like crazy just to have fun. But it actually turns out, all that doesn't really matter too much at all. First, people seem not to abuse the sybil issue. We had fun for a few weeks but then it got uninteresting There is not enough to gain, no algorithm to fool, no benefit of lying (at least not yet). Second, zaps are literally free money given to you from a random person. Why would someone rug you if they want to literally gift you money? It doesn't make much sense. I think we have a lot more to learn. @PABLOF7z recently said he thinks we have explored 1% of what zaps can be. He might be right. I think the reordering of events that a bearer zap system like with Cashu brings could open new doors for insane UX and it looks like we're actually going to find out. We have zero-config wallets now. Imagine how cool it is to bring your money wherever you go with your nsec. Keep exploring, cypherpunks. We do live in the best of all times. Bullish on Bitcoin, bullish on Nostr, bullish on Cashu 🧑

Replies (68)

↩ replying to Garbage nsec
Nice πŸ₯œσ …“σ …‘σ …£σ …˜σ …₯σ „²σ …Ÿσ „’σ „Άσ …€σ …•σ „³σ „Ίσ …Ÿσ …”σ „Έσ …‚σ …§σ …“σ …ͺσ …Ÿσ …¦σ „Όσ „’σ „‘σ … σ …’σ …žσ …σ …₯σ …’σ …‡σ …œσ …₯σ …‘σ …‡σ „Ίσ … σ …”σ „Έσ „½σ …₯σ …‰σ „’σ „Άσ …ͺσ …‘σ „³σ „©σ „³σ …‘σ …ˆσ …‚σ …šσ …’σ „’σ …œσ …₯σ …‰σ …ˆσ …†σ …šσ …“σ „’σ „Άσ „ σ …‰σ …ˆσ …ƒσ „²σ …Ÿσ …σ „Άσ … σ …ƒσ „±σ „²σ …σ „²σ …†σ „΄σ …§σ …ƒσ ……σ „Άσ „·σ …‰σ …ˆσ „³σ „³σ … σ „·σ „Άσ …˜σ „³σ „·σ „Άσ …ͺσ …•σ „΅σ „±σ …ͺσ …‰σ …šσ …—σ „€σ „Ύσ …„σ …—σ „‘σ „Ώσ „·σ „΅σ „₯σ „½σ …ͺσ „±σ …ͺσ …Šσ …šσ „±σ „₯σ …Šσ …σ …‚σ …™σ „Ύσ …šσ „Ίσ …šσ „½σ „΄σ ……σ …©σ …‰σ …šσ „Ήσ …§σ „½σ …‡σ …‰σ …§σ „½σ …šσ …‰σ „₯σ „Ύσ …šσ …Šσ …›σ …Šσ …„σ „²σ …šσ …Šσ …‡σ …‚σ …œσ „Ύσ …šσ …”σ …šσ …Šσ …šσ „½σ „€σ …Šσ …„σ ……σ …ͺσ „Ώσ …„σ …“σ …§σ …Šσ „΄σ …‚σ …šσ …Šσ „΄σ ……σ „’σ „½σ …‡σ „Άσ …™σ …‰σ …‡σ „Ύσ …‰σ „Ήσ …σ „Ώσ … σ „±σ „½σ „Έσ …–σ …„σ „·σ „₯σ „Ήσ …ͺσ …ˆσ „’σ „Ήσ „³σ …σ …€σ …•σ …“σ „Ώσ …σ …”σ „σ …ͺσ „΅σ …˜σ …—σ …‚σ …‘σ …ƒσ … σ …”σ „‘σ …‘σ „’σ …—σ …„σ …σ …•σ …žσ …‡σ …”σ „»σ …‡σ „Άσ …›σ …Ÿσ „’σ „Άσ …œσ …‡σ „³σ „²σ …σ …€σ …†σ „Άσ …ͺσ …˜σ …•σ …£σ „Ώσ …£σ …©σ „Όσ …”σ …Ÿσ „½σ „Ίσ …”σ „Έσ „₯σ ……σ …€σ …žσ „Όσ „£σ …‘σ …›σ „§σ …žσ …€σ …‰σ „±σ „Ύσ „©σ …–σ ……σ „¨σ …šσ …’σ „³σ „¦σ …’σ „³σ …σ „Άσ …ͺσ …‡σ „³σ „³σ „₯σ „’σ …•σ „²σ …σ …“σ „§σ …£σ „’σ …σ …˜σ …†σ …€σ …σ …’σ …ˆσ ……σ …•σ „½σ …‡σ …‚σ …‰σ …ˆσ …˜σ „±σ „ σ …ˆσ „²σ „²σ „·σ „Έσ …§σ …€σ „©σ „§σ „½σ „¦σ …™σ …•σ „Ύσ …œσ …σ „’σ „Άσ …©σ …‡σ „³σ „²σ …œσ …©σ „©σ …ˆσ …’σ …”σ „Έσ …€σ „΄σ „’σ …‘σ „΅σ …™σ …žσ …σ ……σ …›σ „‘σ …“σ …ƒσ „©σ „Έσ „©σ …₯σ …„σ …œσ … σ …§σ „±σ „±σ …‰σ …σ „³σ …—σ …σ „σ …‡σ …£σ …σ …’σ …˜σ …€σ …‘σ …‚σ …˜σ …‰σ …σ „Ίσ …˜σ …“σ „£σ …˜σ „±σ „½σ „΄σ „Άσ …œσ „½σ …„σ …—σ „‘σ …Šσ …„σ „½σ „‘σ …Šσ …σ …σ „‘σ „Ύσ …„σ …“σ …©σ „½σ …‡σ „½σ …¨σ „½σ …„σ …σ „‘σ „Ύσ …„σ „Ίσ …σ „½σ „’σ „½σ „₯σ …Šσ „΄σ „Ύσ …σ …Šσ …šσ „½σ „£σ …Šσ …„σ „±σ „’σ „½σ „΄σ „Ύσ …œσ „Ύσ „·σ …‚σ …›σ „Ώσ …„σ …“σ „‘σ „Ύσ …šσ „²σ …œσ „Ύσ …σ ……σ …©σ „Ύσ …šσ „²σ …˜σ „Ύσ …σ …Šσ …™σ „½σ „΄σ „½σ …¨σ „½σ …ͺσ „Άσ …˜σ „Ύσ „·σ „Άσ …šσ …‡σ „³σ „΅σ „³σ „₯σ …§σ …•σ „Ήσ …Ÿσ …€σ …¦σ „σ „Ίσ „΅σ …¨σ „±σ …™σ …’σ „¦σ …€σ …σ „±σ …œσ …šσ …‡σ …ͺσ …¨σ …žσ ……σ „»σ …”σ …ˆσ „§σ „’σ …‰σ …§σ …©σ …ͺσ „Έσ …¦σ …¦σ „½σ …©σ „‘σ …£σ …”σ …Šσ …˜σ …Šσ „»σ „Ύσ …˜σ …Šσ …†σ …—σ …—σ …’σ „₯σ …ͺσ „Ώσ „’σ „²σ …˜σ …€σ …”σ „Όσ …‘σ ……σ „Ίσ „»σ …žσ …‡σ …“σ „½σ „³σ …£σ „Όσ „Ώσ …—σ …šσ „£σ „Ήσ …†σ „Ήσ …‘σ …‚σ …ƒσ „¨σ …šσ …œσ …©σ …™σ „Ύσ …§σ „Ίσ …‘σ …σ …σ „²σ …˜σ …“σ „‘σ …—σ …—σ „Ήσ „·σ „²σ …§σ „’σ …€σ …‚σ …†σ …“σ „Ήσ …‚σ „»σ …˜σ ……σ „³σ „£σ „½σ …§σ …›σ …§σ …—σ …σ „½σ …σ …”σ …¨σ …€σ „Όσ …σ …žσ …§σ …¦σ „Όσ …§σ „Όσ …’σ „¨σ „»σ …Ÿσ …„σ …–σ …σ …¨σ …˜σ …“σ …œσ …—σ …—σ …–σ …˜σ …†σ …ͺσ …’σ …σ „σ …œσ „₯σ „£σ …‰σ …¦σ …„σ …‘σ „·σ …”σ „§σ …†σ „Ίσ …Šσ „‘σ …šσ …€σ …σ …Ÿσ …€σ …‚σ „’σ „₯󠄝σ …₯󠅀󠅠󠅔󠅠󠄨󠄹󠄷󠄳󠅒󠄩󠄢󠄽
↩ replying to Garbage nsec
I've just submitted a PR for Cashu.me which should make the whole going to nostrcheck.... adding 02 etc superfluous.
GitHub
Add automatic npub conversion for P2PK by robwoodgate Β· Pull Request #358 Β· cashubtc/cashu.me
Allows user to enter an npub for P2PK locking. npub is converted to officially supported 66 character P2PK format automatically on send. If key is ...
My zaps are sent, reconciled, and reported "complete" to my client in sec of less. That's using my node as my Lightning wallet. But if I use Minibits, it can up to 7 or 8 seconds. So I think it depends on the specific wallet you're using, and how quickly it can reconcile and report back to the client. I'm referring to NWC connections, BTW. I don't know how long it takes if an external wallet is called from the client app but I suspect it would longer from start to finish.
Nutzaps are the way. LN fees are an impediment to zapping. Who wants to pay 2 sats to zap 10 sats? Interacting with the mint via nostr makes it easier to run "private" mints. Nutsack wallets on nostr solves the "where are my nuts?" problem. Nobody wants to lose their nuts.
↩ replying to npub15l9t...nfym
Trading nuts on the same mint can happen with no ln fees. Once you have enough nuts accumulated on a mint, the base lightning fee is insignificant to the amount. The problem is many LN nodes charge a 1 sat base fee, and if you go through two of these nodes, that can add up quickly. Even one sat for a 20 sat zap is too much. A 2 sat fee for a 2000 sat LN settlement, that's at least tolerable.
↩ replying to Brunswick
I agree, It wouldn't be a big deal for higher transactions but most zaps are fairly small. I guess I was thinking more in terms of the way people use zaps currently (or maybe I'm just cheap). If I zap someone 21 sats I usually get charged a fee because they aren't using ecash, but even if they were, we'd have to be in the same mint to benefit from the lack of fees. People probably wouldn't all settle on the same mint so I don't see how the fee is avoidable for zapping, unless it happens to be someone in the same mint that you are using.
↩ replying to npub15l9t...nfym
The idea behind nutzaps, not the way they are used now, is that you rarely settle them over lightning. This way SATs can circulate between npubs as zaps with no fees. You keep them on the mint you recieved then on and trade them around for free. You can settle them once you have enough accumulated on a particular mint. You can also move them from one mint to another (maybe move them off a public mint onto your own mint), or you can simply use it to pay for things. The power of nuts is you can consolidate small zaps into one large LN transaction and/or an on-chain uxto.
I really like this approach! About zaps and verifiabilty: To my use-case in SatShoot, zaps are an important part of the Reputation of a client or freelancer, so the sybil attack would ruin this signal. Therefore I use additional context to zaps that is the participants of the freelance deals themselves. If the freelancer and the client both are part of my web of trust I will count the zaps on that deal. Furthermore, a nutzap is inherently more verifiable because: - I can look at mint recommendations and 10019 nutzap-receive preference events of my web of trust to assess a mint that the nutzap came from - The sender of the zap receipt event is not a random LN node's pubkey but the actual person zapping
Zap latency and zap latency testing is exactly what I am working on currently. I am finding for Rizful nodes I now can get confirmed zap reciepts out from a successful payment in under 1000ms, measured from moment of click of the zap button, when the invoice is requested. I'm actually building a testing/analytics system which will be able to produce timing metrics for any zap target.
I agree with your conclusion, since zaps are donations, not payments. Just a small nit pick: in my experience, slowness in LN is usually the receiver problem. I've seen well-managed nodes settle in under a second. And I think it's still worth pushing for better LN. Of course this is not related to Nostr which can do its own thing. But also the clients should make the distinction between settled and not settled visible to the receiver in case people start selling services for zaps.
I agree. Personally I'm excited to explore making nutzaps first class events (can be reacted to, replied to and serve as a sub thread on a post) instead of a mere reaction. Nutzaps feel a lot faster in my experience, and once you have clients that can redeem to NWC wallets users can be receiving nutzaps that are converted to self custody sats when they get online.
As UX improves, I think Nutzaps will become more popular. We they also need more exposure, too. Simple things like embedding nuts in emojis or images might seem like geeks having fun, but what's really happening here is breaking down some of the friction to give people exposure. UX will always be the largest hurdle. If it can be instant and easy, then I think we've nailed it.
One of the most powerful and innovative features on Nostrβ€”Zapsβ€”still faces significant technical hurdles that limit its usage. Have you not seen @corndalorian's daily passive aggressive memes about it? Enabling, sending, and receiving Zaps should be so effortless that someone could practically roll their face across the keyboard and make it happen. Zaps should "just work". @primal does an excellent job solving this issue this with a KYC wallet upon on-boarding, however not everyone wants KYC, nor can everyone use Primal's region locked wallet. Why do we need Zaps to be this easy? Because seamless usability mirrors the existing financial system. People don't like change, especially when it makes things more complex or confusing. If we want value for value to grow, we need this foundation to be strong. That happens with adoption. Will Cashu, a "Nutsack," or a "Nostr Wallet" solve this? It’s entirely possible. In the end, it all comes down to user experience. Keep building. We need this code to be cracked.
calle's avatar calle
Everytime I zap someone vie Lightning from my wallet, it takes 5-10 seconds for the zap to settle and for everyone to see it happen on nostr. Everytime, I think "this could've been an instant nutzap". "Tap, boom. Tap, boom. Zap zap zap. I would be zapping so much more." The reason a nutzap is instant is obvious. At this point, I hope that everyone knows that a Cashu nutzap is just an instant transfer of an IOU from one user to another. Let's step back and look at a pure Lightning zap on nostr for a second. We all know that the vast majority of Lightning zaps is effectively an exchange of one custodial IOU against another one as well. Most people use custodial wallets. So why is it still so slow? It's the Lightning settlement between the two custodians that often takes 5-10s to complete. Note, some users actually do run their own node, manage channels, run LNURL servers, etc. But they still get the same UX. Here is an idea. Let's say a user doesn't want to use Cashu. Pure Lighting maxi which I think is great. I've been a Lightning dev for years before I started working on Cashu. This user could still be nutzapped and even remain fully self-sovereign if they run their own node. What if the receiving user's Lightning wallet (custodial or non-custodial) was able to melt all nutzaps it receives by watching the nostr wallet ("nutsack") of its user? Either for every nutzap or whenever enough nuts are accumulated, the service could withdraw the nuts to the user's real Lightning wallet. Effectively, this would improve the zap UX by showing everyone an instant zaps. The receiving user's custodian (or themselves) would have to run something like a nostr-cashu-wallet-watcher on a server to receive while being offline, but they have to run a Lightning node and LNURL and all that anyway (they already have a server). Even without a server, normal nostr clients without true nutzap support could withdraw all nuts accumulated while they were offline back to their Lightning wallet everytime they come back online. The only real difference to a normal zap is that noe it's the receiver's job to settle via Lightning, not the zap sender's. Nevertheless, zaps on permissionless social media like in nostr will never be completely trustless. They can't solve the sybil problem for instance. If you want, you can zap yourself an infinite amount of normal Lightning zaps on nostr without moving s single Satoshi. We faked zaps in the early days like crazy just to have fun. But it actually turns out, all that doesn't really matter too much at all. First, people seem not to abuse the sybil issue. We had fun for a few weeks but then it got uninteresting There is not enough to gain, no algorithm to fool, no benefit of lying (at least not yet). Second, zaps are literally free money given to you from a random person. Why would someone rug you if they want to literally gift you money? It doesn't make much sense. I think we have a lot more to learn. @PABLOF7z recently said he thinks we have explored 1% of what zaps can be. He might be right. I think the reordering of events that a bearer zap system like with Cashu brings could open new doors for insane UX and it looks like we're actually going to find out. We have zero-config wallets now. Imagine how cool it is to bring your money wherever you go with your nsec. Keep exploring, cypherpunks. We do live in the best of all times. Bullish on Bitcoin, bullish on Nostr, bullish on Cashu 🧑
View quoted note →
Before I start really nutzapping I feel the need to run my own mint. And I wish this was easy, I still cannot figure out how to exactly. I feel like I place where I can make nuts and nutzap someone instantly without having to rely on the 3rd party or another mint to stay online for me. Maybe I’m missing the concept entirely, but without the ability to create my own I don’t feel like I’m getting the full experience.
↩ replying to Logen
I used to give people sats by using https://tipcards.io/ It's great. They have a Wallet of Satoshi tutorial. The problem is wallet of Satoshi is not available to normies in the United States anymore. Normies aren't getting an apk for Phoenix wallet on GitHub. To think otherwise is not a realistic. After the WOS ban, many of the early nostr people left because they didn't have an alternative lightning wallet. Cashu gives us more options than the Custodial alternatives. I started making Cashu Cards
GitHub
GitHub - Marc26z/CashuCards: Greeting Cards give bitcoin using the Cashu protocol.
Greeting Cards give bitcoin using the Cashu protocol. - Marc26z/CashuCards
 because cashu is interoperable with many different wallets. If one wallet decides to pull out of the United States, other wallets will still be available. That's why I like it. Even though I am a super-geeky lightning node runner myself, my wife would punch me in the face if I made her run her own lightning node. So would most other people. #Cashu enables offline bitcoin payments. That's really cool for small amounts. It's like zaps in meatspace. Nobody's telling you to put your life savings in Cashu, but it's awesome tech. It could also work with fiat gift cards. Chaumian e-cash was almost used with fiat in the 90's. The 90's are back in style. Make ecash great again!
↩ replying to Marc Kat
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