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Why Nostr is struggling… There is too much of an overlap with X, not only in the feature sets among the primary applications, but more importantly, in the kind of audience that Nostr is catering to. Sure..censorship resistance at the protocol level is a differentiator, but the to the average person, you may as well be talking gibberish. They don’t know wtf a protocol is in the first place - let alone why it matters for censorship resistance to happen at that level, or more importantly, WHY they should trust Nostr to deliver on that promise. “Bcoz @jack said so” is not an argument. ———— Bluesky is a case in point here. It’s got a VERY similar feature set to X, claims to be open source / censorship resistant (similar narrative to Nostr), and is growing MUCH faster than Nostr, bc it has captured a key audience, ie; people with TDS and EDS (Elon Derangement Syndrome). https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/bluesky-signups-surge-uk-amid-musks-row-with-government-over-riots-2024-08-13/? I’ve been on there a few times, and the content quality is enough to make you want to throw up….but at the very least, it’s working for that kind of content, and for the people who want it. I don’t have a direct answer here..but I think it’s something to do with the over-emphasis on technicals. @DETERMINISTIC OPTIMISM 🌞 mentioned increasing the emphasis on design the other day. I agree this is a move in the right direction. We’re taking a very design-focused approach with @Satlantis: The Social Events App (we’ll have ALOT more to show in the next 6wks). That being said, it’s not enough. IMO, Nostr is technically mature enough for us to go out there and talk about it to more people, and build a narrative BEYOND the 500 of us that are talking to each other on here. People like @PABLOF7z or @Gigi can correct me if I am wrong here. Maybe there’s alot more to do technically. But if I am right, I’d like to see more initiatives that are marketing oriented being supported by @npub17xvf...c9as and @OpenSats and other coalitions. Maybe we even need a council of Nostr businesses, who together pool some funds to help drive some marketing initiatives? Whatever the case, we need to expand upon the Nostr narrative, make it more compelling and speak to more people about it. At the very least, we have to conquer then Bitcoiners. If we can’t get the segment who are into freedom money onto the freedom of speech network, we’re DOA. That’s a first step. I know @Tanja is working on a very cool initiative in relation to this. The Nostr Booth is IMO a great way to make Nostr more “real” for bitcoiners by having a physical presence at all the conferences. I know @utxo the webmaster 🧑‍💻 + @fiatjaf are doing some Podcast outreach. That’s super important too. @mcshane and crew are putting on Nostriga. Amazing. @miljan / @primal are doing great things with @paul keating, etc on the content side. I’ve got some things up my sleeve personally which I will begin to do once @Satlantis: The Social Events App is in a position to represent a NEW kind of Nostr-product.. But we need MOAR.. And…we also need to find another angle that is NOT about censorship resistance. That’s clearly not working against X. I don’t know the EXACT narrative or spin, but it has to be more “running towards” than “running from”. More white pill, less black pill. Anyway. I will probably turn this into an article. I’ve been thinking more and more about “writing in public” as we build Satlantis, and sharing more about how we’re thinking about growing a “network product” on top of a “network protocol”. If you think this was valuable, please repoast so more people can see and get involved in the discussion.

Replies (32)

Bitcoin Circular Economies that use the Lightning Network is the biggest draw, and the problem is that the communities that need those structures the most are usually in the locations where Internet bandwidth is lacking or the most expensive per KB. I mean, it still works to transfer value via phone from person to person, but building a large enough network to start to build a monetary foundation for an entire community is a long haul project, not something to be taken lightly or just mentioned in passing. Nostr being a single global platform where everyone is equal hasn't been seen since the early days of myspace. We need to relearn what a social network is, how it is built, and how it connects to the larger world IRL and economy.
↩ replying to Chad Lupkes
We need to relearn human psychology, specifically what brings people together and what inspires them to open Instagram, YouTube, or TikTok. The majority don’t care about earning or monetizing their content or comments—95% of the audience is just there for fun (except on LinkedIn). Only businesses and creators care about fast lightning and Zaps reactions on posts; the majority still care about fun, value, and entertainment. Let's go back to standard and purpose of networking sites. Connect with unexplored places and people without worrying about your country's permissions or content blocking. Connect with world on Nostr without taking permissions.
↩ replying to npub1zxp8...hh37
Nostr and the LN combines open global connections with the ability to conduct commerce locally for all goods and services. Reaching out across the world is an option and a choice, but paying for the food you eat, for the expenses of housing, education and health care, for all the things we enjoy, that's the real power that we have given over to gate keepers and middle men for centuries. That's the power we need to take back, using a medium of exchange and unit of account that doesn't fail as a store of value over time.
I think the strongest incentive for nostr comes from the "own your audience" or better put "own your connections". This comes from owning your online identity. Nostr will be the only place where you will be able to build a reputation that lasts FOREVER. Comms need to be directed towards people with something to offer: Serious content creators, businesses, freelancers, open-source project leaders etc. They have skin in the game as they will ALWAYS lose their hard-earned reputation until they realize, on nostr your connections i.e. your reputation cannot be rugged. Don't waste your time on silly normies with nothing to gain, nothing to lose. So the message becomes: "If you start to build your audience on nostr apps you will make compounded gains without the fear of rugpull - Otherwise you will be left behind by people who made that choice earlier. Sure it takes courage. Sure it takes work to onboard your audience and explain how things work here differently but this is such a small cost compared to the guarantees nostr provides: Your everlasting online identity that cannot be canceled, corrupted or owned by anyone but you." Time is on the side of builders on nostr.
↩ replying to Five
This approach is for the few creators who really think about legacy and long-term purpose. Most creators are shortsighted, only looking for quick fame and monetary benefits within a few months or 1-2 years. If they don't see traction within a few months, they stop creating and start chasing another platform, like TikTokers becoming YouTubers or YouTubers becoming TikTokers. TikTok provided fast Fame Youtube provided a good amount For 4% of creators, this approach can work. Need to think about the other 96% of creators.
Agree and disagree. So how does an echo chamber work. Is the first attempt. Which is really how think your thinking. The point of a positive echo chamber is new ideas grow and hopefully flourish. The Meztdow and CPunks among others, was the opportunity to collaborate in a deformed discussion. Best ideas got to the top with critical thinkers. And that brainstormed. The point of open honest conversation is to agree on the smartest ideas. That’s it.
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I think the best narrative is interconnection of different apps. You get app with reviews of restaurants from your friends. Highlights of content. Posts and images. You can meet your friends at events. All these apps use the same identity and social graph. It's like if Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Medium, Yelp, Meetup, ... used the same backbone.
↩ replying to Juraj
I think this is a strong angle. That being said, I do see some challenges in having my identity shared across multiple different platforms. For example. People communicate with their audiences quite differently on Instagram, compared with X, compared with Substack, and certainly when compared with LinkedIn. I’ve had a number of conversations with content creators who’ve mentioned this. It’s not a deal breaker for them, but it’s something I don’t have a very clear answer for. But overall - I think the portable identity and portable social graph is the biggest benefit, and the one worth leaning into with messaging & comms.
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↩ replying to Alekandar Svetski
Yes. One possible angle is that they won't do it like that. If you post a photo, someone might look at it in a photo viewing app like Instagram, some might see it as a blog or a microblog. People looking at Nostr on Twitter often search for social media management app that can repost content from Twitter to Nostr. I always suggest not to do that, Nostr is different and has its own language and interactions are different. And it's best to get a feel for it first. For creators, there are two ways of looking at it. First is that there is not much engagement here, you can't target, you can't convince the algorithm to show your posts. The old tricks don't work. On the other hand, for some niches, Nostr still is the least crowded channel (idea I got from Tim Ferris's work). Your competition is probably not here yet. It feels like town square, there is a nicer vibe to it. But maybe it just isn't for creators, maybe it's for a few of us and it'll stay like it and it's ok.
Agree that censorship resistance is not enough of a feature for the average person to be interested in Nostr. But I disagree that if we can’t capture the freedom money group then we’re SOL. Nostr has more opportunities than freedom perks (although they are important), and I’m personally excited for Nostr to be able to recommend content that’s much more interesting than what’s on YouTube/Tiktok etc.. Escaping the data silos of big tech means that user information and posts across the network can be used and manipulated in new ways. User choice of a specific algorithm is HUGE and I don’t think this should be overlooked. We’re talking about fine tuning parameters so that each time you open the home page of an app, you’re actually interested in most of the content presented to you. Can’t tell you how many times YouTube recommends the same videos over and over, or more clickbait esque videos about how the world is burning and all hope is lost. Customizing your own algorithm means having the ability to filter out a lot of this.
I'm just a user, not a dev, so it's easy for me to say this and feel free to ignore my uninformed position, but... Let it struggle. Good stuff takes time and grows more resilient through the struggle. Seems like Nostr has had great legs already. I don't think we should seek mass adoption because privacy and censorship are not valued in society overall right now - it would be futile - and tricking normies into using it will help in the long run. It won't have mass adoption until those values return, and they won't for a long time or until a critical mass changed their minds. Until Nostr I hadn't used any type of social media for over a decade, and I just felt that Nostr was worthy of my efforts to participate. We have to keep going as the minority.. the 20% to make 80% of the change
Alekandar Svetski's avatar Alekandar Svetski
Why Nostr is struggling… There is too much of an overlap with X, not only in the feature sets among the primary applications, but more importantly, in the kind of audience that Nostr is catering to. Sure..censorship resistance at the protocol level is a differentiator, but the to the average person, you may as well be talking gibberish. They don’t know wtf a protocol is in the first place - let alone why it matters for censorship resistance to happen at that level, or more importantly, WHY they should trust Nostr to deliver on that promise. “Bcoz @jack said so” is not an argument. ———— Bluesky is a case in point here. It’s got a VERY similar feature set to X, claims to be open source / censorship resistant (similar narrative to Nostr), and is growing MUCH faster than Nostr, bc it has captured a key audience, ie; people with TDS and EDS (Elon Derangement Syndrome). https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/bluesky-signups-surge-uk-amid-musks-row-with-government-over-riots-2024-08-13/? I’ve been on there a few times, and the content quality is enough to make you want to throw up….but at the very least, it’s working for that kind of content, and for the people who want it. I don’t have a direct answer here..but I think it’s something to do with the over-emphasis on technicals. @DETERMINISTIC OPTIMISM 🌞 mentioned increasing the emphasis on design the other day. I agree this is a move in the right direction. We’re taking a very design-focused approach with @Satlantis: The Social Events App (we’ll have ALOT more to show in the next 6wks). That being said, it’s not enough. IMO, Nostr is technically mature enough for us to go out there and talk about it to more people, and build a narrative BEYOND the 500 of us that are talking to each other on here. People like @PABLOF7z or @Gigi can correct me if I am wrong here. Maybe there’s alot more to do technically. But if I am right, I’d like to see more initiatives that are marketing oriented being supported by @npub17xvf...c9as and @OpenSats and other coalitions. Maybe we even need a council of Nostr businesses, who together pool some funds to help drive some marketing initiatives? Whatever the case, we need to expand upon the Nostr narrative, make it more compelling and speak to more people about it. At the very least, we have to conquer then Bitcoiners. If we can’t get the segment who are into freedom money onto the freedom of speech network, we’re DOA. That’s a first step. I know @Tanja is working on a very cool initiative in relation to this. The Nostr Booth is IMO a great way to make Nostr more “real” for bitcoiners by having a physical presence at all the conferences. I know @utxo the webmaster 🧑‍💻 + @fiatjaf are doing some Podcast outreach. That’s super important too. @mcshane and crew are putting on Nostriga. Amazing. @miljan / @primal are doing great things with @paul keating, etc on the content side. I’ve got some things up my sleeve personally which I will begin to do once @Satlantis: The Social Events App is in a position to represent a NEW kind of Nostr-product.. But we need MOAR.. And…we also need to find another angle that is NOT about censorship resistance. That’s clearly not working against X. I don’t know the EXACT narrative or spin, but it has to be more “running towards” than “running from”. More white pill, less black pill. Anyway. I will probably turn this into an article. I’ve been thinking more and more about “writing in public” as we build Satlantis, and sharing more about how we’re thinking about growing a “network product” on top of a “network protocol”. If you think this was valuable, please repoast so more people can see and get involved in the discussion.
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↩ replying to CriptoPanas
Perhaps. But those are still niche niche niche niche niche products. I say niche 5 times and that’s still probably too generous. Yes - things need to start somewhere, and maybe time is all that’s needed. But I’d like to put some effort into the right places (communication and marketing) so that the time we have is more effectively utilised
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Speak for yourself, I've been doing my thing and I've never used X. I'm streaming str8 goodness in the mornings, get more Indie Web folks by not banging on about money and "owning the libs". I don't know how many folks here have hobbies outside money? That's a good start. Each one teach one. No context Phil Collins ftw.
the issue is people are never aware of censorship because they are fundamentally repeaters and if any idea is banned they can never notice it because before they can be punished for repeating it they must first hear it somewhere but they never do since it is banned ... thus people on every platform believe they have freedom of speech because everyone who realizes there is no freedom of speech on that platform - is banned from that platform ... all of you loser slaves here are transplants from other slave platforms and honestly have no use for freedom since you can't say anything that would be banned elsewhere anyway ... only way for NOSTR to be meaningful is to recruit people with the most extreme ideas not accepted anywhere else - for example Pedophilia, Incest and a total ban on religion - including both Christianity and Judaism. so far only myself, @Vermeil_Kisser and @A. Linder express ANY ideas that would get us banned from other platforms. the rest of you don't know why you're here. @Mike Dilger ☑️
↩ replying to Dissident Sound
Christianity is very flawed when taken seriously, since it leads to viewing niggers as equal humans. That said, I did recently clip Jay Dyer saying Eastern Orthodox allows 15 yo women to get married. So, it's not completely worthless. Just very flawed. I always vouch that White Patriarchy is the only way forward, so I do wonder if an atheistic version of it would be sufficient to replace Christianity.
Well said. With the Telegram ceo arrest, censorship is top of mind for many Bitcoiners. Seems worth it to pitch them on nostr as many aren’t here and some are using Twitter. Broadly, the pitch need to be tailored to specific groups of people. What is the imoortant problem nostr *uniquely* solves for: Current users? Many Bitcoiners not on here. The next (bigger) group of users? Who might hey be and why? Are they eBay people? What *unmet* need does nostr meet for any group of folks?