Thread
So the Trump's 'crypto* EO is out, and I'm seeing lots of weak bitches cry that its a shitcoin reserve.
Given the fact that the proposed digital assets stockpile would possibly be built on *seized* coins, let me give you a quick introduction to forfeiture law, and why crying for daddy to please please make its pile of flying horseshit "bitcoin only" *literally* the most retarded thing you could be wishing for, ever.
Forfeiture law – or civil asset forfeiture, to be precise – is this fun little game the government plays in which it does not have to accuse you of a crime to confiscate your property.
Instead of accusing you of a crime, the Government claims that the asset itself has facilitated a crime, and can therefore be seized by the Government.
In civil asset forfeiture, there is no innocent until proven guilty. To get your property back, *you* have to prove that the Government is wrong – which turns out pretty complicated seeing how its impossible to prove a negative.
Civil asset forfeiture results in cases that are not filed against a person, but filed against the property itself. This results in fun little cases like US vs. Binance Account XYZ, or US vs. 123 Wilmington Drive.
To extend this idea to Bitcoin, in a civil forfeiture case, the US Government is in theory able to seize *any bitcoin* that has *ever* come out of a criminal transaction.
Made some bitcoin for selling a service? Bought some bitcoin on a P2P exchange? Unless you checked that the UTXO you received has never touched a criminal transaction in its entire history, your coins can be confiscated, and there's pretty much nothing you can do about it.
As Cato Institute points out in its piece on civil forfeiture reform, forfeiture law is routinely misused to enrich the Government – Philadelphia, for example, has seized over 1000 homes, over 3000 vehicles, and over $44M in cash over an 11 year period. In 2010, the city tried to seize *an entire fucking house* because a woman's grandson sold less than $200 of weed out of the basement.
If you think that taxes are bad, civil asset forfeiture is straight up evil.
It doesn't matter whether you participated in a crime. It doesn't matter whether you know that someone else participated in a crime. If it involved your property, even if said property was fully legally acquired, the Government will come and take it.
Civil asset forfeiture is the most insane Government funding technique that is out there, and you most definitely do not want this declared as a strategic means to pump the Government's bitcoin bags.
You are *literally* asking the Government to steal your coins with a practice that *every* libertarian advocate wants to see abolished.
Replies (28)
Thank you for this reminder.
Okay so civil forteiture is a problem. Worth tackling going forward.
But the outcey at the moment isn't whether there should be a reserve/stockpile or not. The EO has been signed so its a thing, like it or not. My question is, why would a crypto reserve be preferable over a bitcoin only reserve?
In both instances bitcoin is still subject to civil forfeiture. But one scenario is legitimizing shitcoins and scams while the other is recognizing hard money.
If the question is reserve or no reserve, I see your point re: civil forfeiture and thats certainly worth a conversation and education. But the outcry is having chosen crypto over bitcoin.
love it when you take the whip out
I wonder if Ross’s bitcoin will be the first to go into the stockpile?
Excellent and clearly written! More people need to understand this. Civil asset forfeiture as part of U.S. law was a dominant factor in my loss of respect for the entire concept of “rule of law.” All governments have proven they should not be trusted, and some are so bad they should be assisted in their demise.
WHEN OPTING OUT OFFERS INSUFFICIENT PROTECTION, TAKING UP ARMS HAS MANY GOOD HISTORICAL PRECEDENTS. FOR EXAMPLE, CONSIDER HOW ALCOHOLIC TEENAGERS WITH MUSKETS FORMED THE UNITED STATES AND UNLEASHED THE GREATEST PROSPERITY IN HISTORY - AT LEAST UNTIL FIAT RUINED EVERYTHING. HUMAN AGENCY IS STILL AVAILABLE TO THOSE WHO HAVE NOT SURRENDERED THEIR KIN TO THE WOLVES.
L0la L33tz
So the Trump's 'crypto* EO is out, and I'm seeing lots of weak bitches cry that its a shitcoin reserve.
Given the fact that the proposed digital assets stockpile would possibly be built on *seized* coins, let me give you a quick introduction to forfeiture law, and why crying for daddy to please please make its pile of flying horseshit "bitcoin only" *literally* the most retarded thing you could be wishing for, ever.
Forfeiture law – or civil asset forfeiture, to be precise – is this fun little game the government plays in which it does not have to accuse you of a crime to confiscate your property.
Instead of accusing you of a crime, the Government claims that the asset itself has facilitated a crime, and can therefore be seized by the Government.
In civil asset forfeiture, there is no innocent until proven guilty. To get your property back, *you* have to prove that the Government is wrong – which turns out pretty complicated seeing how its impossible to prove a negative.
Civil asset forfeiture results in cases that are not filed against a person, but filed against the property itself. This results in fun little cases like US vs. Binance Account XYZ, or US vs. 123 Wilmington Drive.
To extend this idea to Bitcoin, in a civil forfeiture case, the US Government is in theory able to seize *any bitcoin* that has *ever* come out of a criminal transaction.
Made some bitcoin for selling a service? Bought some bitcoin on a P2P exchange? Unless you checked that the UTXO you received has never touched a criminal transaction in its entire history, your coins can be confiscated, and there's pretty much nothing you can do about it.
As Cato Institute points out in its piece on civil forfeiture reform, forfeiture law is routinely misused to enrich the Government – Philadelphia, for example, has seized over 1000 homes, over 3000 vehicles, and over $44M in cash over an 11 year period. In 2010, the city tried to seize *an entire fucking house* because a woman's grandson sold less than $200 of weed out of the basement.
If you think that taxes are bad, civil asset forfeiture is straight up evil.
It doesn't matter whether you participated in a crime. It doesn't matter whether you know that someone else participated in a crime. If it involved your property, even if said property was fully legally acquired, the Government will come and take it.
Civil asset forfeiture is the most insane Government funding technique that is out there, and you most definitely do not want this declared as a strategic means to pump the Government's bitcoin bags.
You are *literally* asking the Government to steal your coins with a practice that *every* libertarian advocate wants to see abolished.
View quoted note →
Um...well. That is crap.
Thank you so much for making me aware of this. I understand it is the same in Australia after some brief research with Victoria being the toughest on it apparently.
Is the real battle against this law and not necessarily a Bitcoin-focused treasury...
Whoever owns 123 Wilmington Drive is about to get the shit doxxed out of them
Really interesting thank you.
Even if obviously seizing Bitcoins could turned out much more complicated than normal assets due to pseudonymity, and it's obvious digitality.
And even if they managed to seize some Bitcoin from regulated entities which comply, it will just decenticivize people using Bitcoin in the US which is a bad trade of,.
Or incentivize them using more Lightning like private way of exchanging UTXO's.
Let's see realizing that requires critical thinking and most Bitcoin people these days are here for number go up and not for the ideals that Bitcoin was originally founded upon and have no logic.
Good take.
Her take doesn’t apply to American cold storage 2nd amendment gun caarrying citizens it means nothing
Cold storage 🥶 🧊 is a bitch. Guess it's tough shit 😎
Couldn't agree more. Many former freedom tech influencers forgot about potential unintended consequences of encouraging the state to pump their bags. I have been ranting about this for a long time. It is clear that many on this thread don't have a clue how brutally the state enforces it's initiatives. "Give us your corn or we overwhelm you with force, then cage you for as long as it takes."
Holy fuck👀
L0la L33tz
So the Trump's 'crypto* EO is out, and I'm seeing lots of weak bitches cry that its a shitcoin reserve.
Given the fact that the proposed digital assets stockpile would possibly be built on *seized* coins, let me give you a quick introduction to forfeiture law, and why crying for daddy to please please make its pile of flying horseshit "bitcoin only" *literally* the most retarded thing you could be wishing for, ever.
Forfeiture law – or civil asset forfeiture, to be precise – is this fun little game the government plays in which it does not have to accuse you of a crime to confiscate your property.
Instead of accusing you of a crime, the Government claims that the asset itself has facilitated a crime, and can therefore be seized by the Government.
In civil asset forfeiture, there is no innocent until proven guilty. To get your property back, *you* have to prove that the Government is wrong – which turns out pretty complicated seeing how its impossible to prove a negative.
Civil asset forfeiture results in cases that are not filed against a person, but filed against the property itself. This results in fun little cases like US vs. Binance Account XYZ, or US vs. 123 Wilmington Drive.
To extend this idea to Bitcoin, in a civil forfeiture case, the US Government is in theory able to seize *any bitcoin* that has *ever* come out of a criminal transaction.
Made some bitcoin for selling a service? Bought some bitcoin on a P2P exchange? Unless you checked that the UTXO you received has never touched a criminal transaction in its entire history, your coins can be confiscated, and there's pretty much nothing you can do about it.
As Cato Institute points out in its piece on civil forfeiture reform, forfeiture law is routinely misused to enrich the Government – Philadelphia, for example, has seized over 1000 homes, over 3000 vehicles, and over $44M in cash over an 11 year period. In 2010, the city tried to seize *an entire fucking house* because a woman's grandson sold less than $200 of weed out of the basement.
If you think that taxes are bad, civil asset forfeiture is straight up evil.
It doesn't matter whether you participated in a crime. It doesn't matter whether you know that someone else participated in a crime. If it involved your property, even if said property was fully legally acquired, the Government will come and take it.
Civil asset forfeiture is the most insane Government funding technique that is out there, and you most definitely do not want this declared as a strategic means to pump the Government's bitcoin bags.
You are *literally* asking the Government to steal your coins with a practice that *every* libertarian advocate wants to see abolished.
View quoted note →
The government already stole the coins. They aren't coming back. Stop acting like they will be returned to their rightful owners. The choice is then they either sell them and make money off the coin, or keep them in a reserve. CAF is not going away, and the courts have rules time and time again it is legal in most cases.
Stop acting like there is a 3rd option here. The 'criminals' are not getting it back.
I really don’t get why people want this reserve either. I don’t trust it. Why should we want the government to buy bitcoin with our money instead of buying it ourselves? Or give them incentive to steal it from us?
It’s also just one more thing for the government to decide to do without actually getting a vote or permission from any of its citizens before doing it.
Here’s a question & love to get your take: does a SBR violate the separation of Money and State?
Do they get to confiscate a single UTXO, the whole stack they can find, or only the sats that have been used in criminal activity? I don't even know if the last one is even possible.
Heavy shit Loo. I didn’t appreciate the implications. I’ve been honed in on tax and inflation but this forfeiture thing is fucking frightening in a bitcoin context!
Civil asset forfeiture is straight up unconstitutional in its current form, so essentially hypocritical and yes I can truly say the self proclaimed authorities love this mafia tactic. Using the war on drugs as a major excuse to falsely justify the mass implementation of it.
