Thread

What if I don't trust anyone?

loneliness and poverty usually

The topic is *algos* for WoT.

you have a miserable life

WoT is inherently flawed for social media, and the context of application matters. people can be uniquely recognized and you can’t really create 2nd identities, but on nostr “trust” does not exist and has a lower bar, fake content can be automated, and identities are free

“spam filtering algorithms” are a superset of WoT

You can still use a graph offline. https://iris.to/note1tlzzsszhk5xaghfdeuvlewajrz0hvxnsgdtln7uv7jff6zhtpdxqt4ndzx

Like grunk doesn't like your cave paintings therefore all of grunks friends being banned from seeing your cave? Except, grunk had to use physical violence to enforce that, while on nostr some Devs are intentionally trying to create a censorship apparatus

Amethyst can bring in censorship. But anyone who pushes other clients to follow them, they've lost my respect and my trust.

Spam filtering without shadowbanninng non spammers seems like a much better approach to me.

It makes it easier for me to trust your sense of judgement if you question everyone elses.

I feel you bro

Betraying that trust came at a high price. With WoT algos, they can just get a new npub and start over. That is the lower end. The higher end just ends up reinforcing the hyperconcentrated feeds everyone already has, that have them constantly moaning that Nostr is dying because they see such a small subset of notes. So that a few people taking a break causes their feed to collapse.

There is a reason any form of PageRank and similar algorithms have only been used as a factor, not the only way

WoT has a serious cold start problem while at the same time relying on a metric that can be manipulated (humans deciding to follow anyone)

Anything can be used as a censorship apparatus. You post gifs. I hate gifs. I had gifs to my apps filters, hiding them all. Users decide they don't like that feature. Users use another Nostr client. Nostr working as intended.

Just getting a new npub is easy, rebuilding the reputation is hard part.

Not with automation. We keep seeing them do this.

Show me one that's new and has a high GrapeRank score in my WoT.

I don't see them, anymore. I only use good relays. I don't have a high score in your GrapeRank, for what it is worth.

I guess I do too because I don't see them either. And this makes me curious as to what you don't use or do to have a lower score. Is it zaps? I am seeing people I don't follow in the 90's and upon inspection it looks like some of them at least zap a lot.

I'm one of Nostr's most-prolofic and generous zappers, so nope. I get blocked and reported a lot, and have effectively stopped gaining followers for a year, or so. I don't fit in. I'm the spam.

That's wild to me. Why do you get blocked and reported? 😡 Fucking people.

where can I see his graperank?

Jealousy, probably. Just use better relays that aren't run by assholes.

Haters gonna hate, F em

You are not the only one.

Yeah, there's a couple of us. And there are people who attack me personally, and when I defend myself, they mute me. And then their alts also all mute me. 😂 There was a whole reporting-and-muting swarm that hit me, about a year ago, after I complained about scat-eating porn, snuff porn, rape porn, and personalized porn (using my pics) getting dropped in my replies and sent to my DMs. Completely filled my notifications, for days, which is when I switched to my own theforest relay. Turns out, nobody will pay to send me that stuff. LOL It was automated, but people I was following were following some of them, and they all followed each other, so I suddenly dropped off the feeds. I think WoT would actually help prevent that, as it detects sudden clusters of new npubs appearing, but I don't think it necessarily is accurate when rating one particular npub.

A lot of people on here like their women bland and docile, on principle. I do not deliver the requested experience. 😂

I think that's the point, Derek. I think people are exactly concerned about tribalism. WoT is technically cool. Every nerd (including me) loves a graph database. But it has a lot of sharp corners socially. I love the reputation scoring for relays, but I can manage my personal social interactions without scores and badges. It's good for things like markets (seller score) but little badges and social status points in the public square are maybe not ideal. WoT (or reputation score, really) is useful in a lot of special domains, but people ratings and transitive mutes are just kind of gross.

WoT *is* the message, in whatever way you want to package it: shared cultural cognition or tech. It forms a trap. It might be a necessary trap to deal with opportunists and spammers, or simply, as you say, something that goes back to tribal need. I used to figure I wanted the WoT/reputation. I don't think that anymore. It is something I learned here on Nostr, along with @HODL 's memetic circus tricks. A good hack is to just get a new npub and start over with the few people that had any genuine engagement related to priority work. This is especially important if you don't care about Bitcoin or the other cultural attributes that dominate Nostr. It is easy for me to try too hard. I hope I've learned to back off of this thing called reputation. It is related to identity, and that alone is a huge nasty trap we fall into (and it is monetized). Mostly, what I post as an individual means zero. What I create, how I interact and care IRL matters. Sure, that sounds pat and trite, but I also believe that gets at the WoT issue as well. Create something useful, and people will find you regardless of the WoT of the day/platform. If I get some free time, I'm thinking that a hybrid between ham radio licenses and CB radio (with channel 9) would be an interesting project. (my x.509/MQTT tunnel/Tower w/ Nostr event objects routing idea). I'm not so sure it addresses WoT any better... haven't investigated that far... I have something to finish, first. I have this intuition there is something there, though. Anyhoo... Jack's money has been put to great use here, IMO.

@Laser and some of his little friends muted me, recently, after I said it's unchristian to demand the death penalty for someone being homosexual. People think I'm getting muted because I did something terrible. No, they do something terrible and I say, Hey, that's terrible! and then they mute me. 🤣

The same thing happened to me since the "great" programmer The Daniel did that crap with the block/unfollow list, and put me there, even though I never did anything to him. Probably some post offended him and... And there was a period about two years ago when everyone could share lists of blocked people. You know what I thought about wot yesterday... The herd effect works perfectly here too. Here I had the claim to find smarter people, who think for themselves, but I was wrong. There are only a few and they suffer what you suffered, or other things. There's no point in getting angry anymore. I'm speechless at this moment.

Yeah, I'm not very biddable myself

how do you answer idiots? iLL gO 1st "i dO/\/'t" luvYA Stella/ #loveIZlogical

My dear I came to conclusion long ago that muted people on Nostr are those you should listen too... We are very low on Bullshit tolerance and we dont suck those nymphs stories... they dont like that we have a strong opinionated 'voice' they cant tame. Everything always comes to the light of a day at least in this existence. They should all buckle up... 💀✨️🤣🥳⭐️

What is wild to you? You really don't know what is happening here? Just asking...

The most friction I've experienced on Nostr is after exposing BS. They'll repost my notes and add lies in an attempt to smear me, then claim to mute me. Or, in one case, vauguely threaten to stalk me. I've never check who has muted me, because I really don't care. Point out lies, or false dichotomies, if you want to lose favor on Nostr. Cheer when the fiat price of bitcoin increases to get zaps. That's our community algo.

Nobody likes their hypocrisy being pointed out. It takes real balls to admit when you were wrong, hadn't thought things through or jumped to conclusions through prejudice.

I didn't realize being muted by someone on nostr has such an effect. I figure it would just be something thaglt one user's client does.

I mute a ton of people.

I mostly mute / block pedo spam shit. I otherwise enjoy reading other peoples takes.

I didn't know you could see who has muted you.

Virtually everything you do on Nostr is public. Want to have scary fun? Login to a nostr client using someone else's npub. Yes, their npub.

You often can, yes. That's how the data gets included in the algo.

i think people are afraid to use mute, when in reality, if we're supposed to be in charge of our attention and our feeds, then muting is just an extension of that. muting allows both parties to win and be in control over their experiences.

yes you are, the problem is humans are easy to manipulate with automated accounts, where the reputation can be built up with AI slop and burnt up for scams and impersonation

Millions of bots lol You only need 5 bots to to manipulate this so called web of trust. It would be extremely easy to exploit if other clients adopt it. One person could easily shadowban anyone they want from new users with a handful of reply bots